Why It’s Time to Give Your Death Care Business a Digital Make-Over

Changes in consumer behavior have created a need for businesses of all sizes and types to rethink how they offer their goods and services, and death care service providers are not exempt. While many funeral homes, cemeteries, and crematoria have successfully used manual processes and have relied extensively on paper records, the times are changing. To attract new clients, keep in touch with the families you serve, gain efficiency, and position your business for the future, adopting digital technologies is crucial.

In this webinar we explore how the market is changing, why the time is right for a digital makeover, and how to get started with your own digital transformation.

Transcript

All right, well. Good morning, everybody, and thank you for joining me for today's event: "Why it's Time to Give Your Business a Digital Makeover".

We've got half an hour of information today to share with you. And after that, we'll have some additional time to take questions. And, of course, on the point of questions, as we go through today, please do fire them in. You'll see down at the bottom there's two areas of Q&A in a chat area. Questions would be great to go into the Q&A. I've got a couple of colleagues online with me as well to help moderate the chat. If you've got any general comments or certainly any issues, fire them in via the chat button and my colleagues will address them for you as best they can as well.

Also, as is the case for all of the webinars we do here at OpusXenta, today's events being recorded and we're going to make that recording available to everybody who registered and or attended within the next few days. If you've got any colleagues or contacts that you think might be interested in or might benefit from the content today, then please do share that recording link with them once you get it.

And so. Today's topics are on the screen at the moment, and as you can see, to start with, I'm going to talk a little about what our new normal is now and what that might look like in what we all hope is both a Covid Normal and a soon to be post-Covid world. We'll explore some examples of what this new normal means from a consumer perspective. And look at the way that Covid has in many cases not not changed, but actually accelerated behaviors that were already emerging and were already well and truly underway.

And we'll take a good look then at what that specifically means for the death care sector, what our industry specific new normal looks like and will continue to look like into the future. And then finally, we're going to take a look at what your specific digital makeover might, probably should, look like, what that means, how to do it, that sort of thing. And then again, at the end, questions and do please fire them through as they come to you.

So we've all heard this expression, if it ain't broke, don't fix it. And in some cases, you may very well feel this way about how you've been running your business to date. I'm here today to tell you that it may very well be broke or just about to break. Just because the radiator isn't spraying water and that the wheels aren't falling off and bouncing down the road ahead of you, it might just be a matter of a little more time, you know, in the same way that you don't or at least you shouldn't wait until your car stops to service it. You can't wait until your business breaks to make a digital transformation. And we're going to talk about, in a real detailed way now, why that's the case. If it ain't broke, don't fix it is not going to cut it. And we'll see why.

Because, of course, as we all know as well, over the last, let's call it, 12 months, we've all been through a lot in Australia and New Zealand here. We've probably been quite fortunate and slightly sheltered compared to some parts of the world. But still, wow, we've been through a lot. And even for the lucky ones, we've still endured lockdown's isolation, real seismic changes in the way that we're all doing work. And, of course, a huge amount of fear and uncertainty that has come as part of that same thing. For the unlucky ones, of course, it's been far worse than just fear and uncertainty. For all of us everywhere, what we did and the way we did it just 12 months ago is going to look at least a bit and in many cases significantly different today and tomorrow.

You know, masks, physical distancing, the unbelievable migration to that was already on the way, the migration to online shopping, online learning, online meeting, online working, that the rise of the webinar that we're in now, it's really quite breathtaking how quickly and widespread this change has swept us all up. We're living in a world where where even the way that we deal with one of life's inevitables, that is death, has changed with a truly astonishing speed.

You know, I live in Victoria, here in Australia, and at the peak of the Victorian lockdown, I had the mother of a friend pass away. And I sat in this seat on this computer and cried as I was watching a funeral inside a Web browser. And this was a funeral that was maybe 30 minutes drive from my home. But that was the normal we had then, and you know what, as part of building out this webinar, you know, we looked at some some numbers and things and there was a recent industry survey that said that 46 percent of guests who've attended a service online felt that they were meaningfully present in that, and able to show support for the family, even though they weren't physically at the funeral and at the memorial. And I certainly had that experience myself and got feedback from my friends' whose mother passed away that they felt that we were part of it.

Interestingly, almost the exact same percentage said that after the pandemic, they felt that in many cases they would continue to prefer to attend online. To my mind at least, there's just no way that people would have been talking this way even 12 months ago.

We are already living in a different world. And, you know, welcome to the new normal, as it says on the screen here.

But as I sort of already alluded to a couple of times, our new normal is really an accelerated arrival at a destination that we're already well on the way to. How consumers find information, how we research products, how we make purchase decisions. It's changed dramatically year over year. And these changes are coming faster year on year as well. Today's new normal consumer behaviors, they've well and truly began to emerge prior to the pandemic.

When I first considered the statistics that are on the screen here at the moment. I've got to be honest and say that I kind of nodded my head way down the list, shrugged a little. Because, to me, and admittedly, I'm something of a digital native, none of this was a surprise. But then I kind of step back and thought about it a little bit more deeply.

Eighty-six percent of people in the 50 to 64 age category showed that they research online prior to purchase. Twenty-six percent of the entire global population, that's not first world, that's global, and these are pre pandemic numbers. So when you really look at that and you consider that all age groups, all demographics, all geographies, we're not just ready to embrace digital, but in many cases we're really actively embracing it, 86 percent within one of the older age groups of the study. That is a stark and compelling figure to say that the argument that my demographic aren't into this, that doesn't cut it. It didn't cut it pre-pandemic.

And the last couple of points: 20 percent, that is one in five searched online for funeral planning devices. Almost half would like to handle things in a less imperson way. Pre-pandemic death care was already on the cusp of a significant, dare I say it, seismic change, pre pandemic. And in today's Covid Normal, and what we anticipate to be a post Covid world, hopefully very soon these changes that were coming, the changes that have crashed through society and the death care sector in the last 12 months or so, many of them are clearly going to stick.

You know, in some cases, they're going to stick because of a combination of factors that amount to the fear, uncertainty and doubt fund as as I've heard it called. But in many cases they're going to stick because they were coming anyway. And we've just, they just make too much sense in today's modern connected digital world. Virtual, remote, online, work from home, remote learning, stream services, online shopping, online booking, online attendance. The digital transformation of society is here. It's come and it's only going to get more significant. And these statistics, it's undeniable.

Now, as I did mentioned before, we here in Australia and New Zealand, whilst we've by no means had an easy time, we have had and still have it far better than some other parts of the world. When we zoom out to a macro, to a global view, we're looking at a new normal that hasn't just changed the way that we live and work, but also an entire macro level socioeconomic situation.

The effects of change on that scale are inevitably going to flow through to our corner of the globe as well. And that's going to both emphasize and accelerate the changes that we've already been discussing.

So, having said all that, as we get ready to switch our focus away from from the environment that we are, are in and will be operating within, I'm going to throw a poll up here to the audience. If you can just take a look and feed back to me.

What are the three big things from this list that you are feeling right now? Are you feeling the pain of the pandemic restrictions? Is compliance paperwork? What out there is is causing you the pain in the top three, at least right here and right now?

And not surprisingly, I can see that resource scheduling, I can see pandemic restrictions, again, not surprisingly. Definitely the changes in workload seems to be the, the most consistent one. There's a there's a fairly good broad, but if I had to say, what are the consistent trends across this and the kind of changes as new answers come in, changes in workload, compliance paperwork, and pandemic restrictions are certainly the three most dominant ones. But there are, there are answers here because every one of those options, which is really interesting to consider.

So even though the questions on screen at the moment, you know, why is it time for a digital makeover? I think we've probably already made the case, at least in large part, for why Digital Makeover is, if not due, it's overdue.

Because going digital, it can be it should be, in fact, genuinely transformative to an organization, it needs to be a new you with new abilities that make the old you frankly look slow and ponderous by comparison. It's a you that, that is able to find new opportunities. It's a you that can cope with this new normal. This is what digital transformation is. It is a fundamental change. A digital makeover is a fundamental change. And it's not a change that has to throw the past away. It's a change that can work alongside. And I'll talk about that in a few moments.

So it's not quite so seismic as the caterpillar to the butterfly. But I guess to stretch an analogy to breaking point in the same way that a butterfly still has legs, you're still able to do things the way you have, but you can you can go out there and fly and do things in a new way as well.

And to look at this in a slightly different way, again, when we consider our digital transformation, we have to consider not just our customers, but also our own workforce and equally the workforces of our business partners, because the fact is that Australia's population is aging. The EU workforce is actively shrinking amongst all of the other changes that we've discussed, there is another change here, and that is the changing of the guard.

There are currently five generations that are working and therefore controlling the purse strings today. And if we start from from from my screen, from the right and look at the youngest generation that's in the workforce, the first members of Gen Z are finishing college and hitting the workforce now. And there are numerous studies and analysis that suggest that, as a group, this is a generation that has been raised almost from birth, as what we would call digital natives. To Gen Z smartphones and similar devices are absolutely essential.

They more or less cannot conceive of a world and a workforce that does not have always connected Internet, constantly active at the point of activity, point of work. Compared to previous generations some other analysis says that Gen Z is more focused on who a person is versus any of their, shall we say, identity politics. But again, this is drawn from the way that they've grown up working through an environment of technology less so than face to face. Gen Z are frequently more actively engaged with their job, studies have shown, when they are actively provided access to technology and where they have some degree of flexibility and a high amount of collaboration. All of these things being synonymous with a digital migration and a digital transformation.

If we move along, the millennials are now solidly within the workforce. In fact, they are the largest generation currently employed within the workforce, born in the very early 80s to the mid to late 90s. And that means that most of them in their late 20s or early 30s, many of them started work during a recession, which has greatly affected the way they view their long term careers. But they grew up as the Internet revolutionized society. So they're again, far more comfortable digitally, digitally communicating than any of the previous generations. And in the workplace, members of this generation, the millennials, often show distinct inclinations to communicate digitally, to send instant messages, emails, text, whatever it might be, rather than any type of face to face. I have seen, and studies show, that many members of this generation would rather send an instant message, even if it's a case of walking across the room. Instead, they will actively choose to communicate digitally, regardless of any arguments around efficiency or anything else.

You know, um, some other generations might find this anything from amusing to annoying. But it's a fact. This is how the younger generations, or at least from my perspective, younger, wish to operate and communicate. And we need to tap into that to engage with our workforce, to engage with our partners workforce, and to engage with our customers.

Moving across. We can take a look at Gen X squeezed between the baby boomers and the millennials. The first generation, as it is, to whom home computing was mainstream from their childhood onward. A generation to whom career women in the workplace is absolutely normalized, but also to whom the question of a job for life is by no means an expectation. Um, you know, it's interesting. Gen X and the workforce since is generally more educated than previous generations, widely held to be self-reliant, widely held to be somewhat cynical. But again, it's crucial that Gen X is, as a as a broad brush stroke, are comfortable using technology, but also comfortable with face to face interactions. But you're now looking at the overwhelming majority of the workplace up to people in many cases in quite senior management positions who, if not digital natives, certainly computing natives and are absolutely comfortable around technology, and in many cases view it as a first choice option rather than an alternative or a supplement.

Moving through here, we have the baby boomers, long known for their strong work ethic, goal centric tendencies, you know, traditionally considered to be hardworking, and traditionally value face to face interaction.

They didn't grow up using computers necessarily, but have lived through the changes and the revolution that we've seen from a digital perspective and a generally, at least moderately, if not extremely comfortable using technology. Well over 70 percent of baby boomers own smartphones. I would suggest from perfectly anecdotally that in Australia, my my perception is that that would be well over 90 percent own smartphones and again, perfectly comfortable with the digital interaction. The oldest generation that's currently in the workforce, the silent generation, as it's sometimes known, or the veteran generation, born in the late 20s through the mid 40s, grew up without much of the technology, without many of the modern conveniences, overcome some adverse economic conditions, overcome wars, you know, established diligent financial habits, hard workers with strong core values.

But if we think back to earlier, still a generation that is increasingly capable and willing to interact digitally, and I think this is one area in particular that the pandemic has really pushed and almost forced a digital transformation through, such that it now fundamentally extends throughout all of the active workforce that digital is, if not first nature, at worst second nature.

So, again, what does it all mean? A lot of things, but the one clear theme is that computing and therefore digital is core to the life of a vastly overwhelming proportion of the workforce and of your customers and of your business partners. If you are not delivering a digital experience, then in many cases you are delivering second best in the minds of the audience.

What about specifically within our sector, you know, let's go back to my analogy. What does the butterfly need to, what does it look like as it emerges from the caterpillar? What is our specific transformational change driver? And there are apparent, you can see them on screen overwhelming. All of this, of course, is that in the UK, at least, nearly 80 per cent of all dispositions are cremations.

And that is a globally reflected trend. And for those of us who are involved in the cemetery and obviously crematorium side of death care, this is a seismic change that we all are aware of. But what else is there?

You know, we can see this change reflective of an overwhelming, overall, I'm sorry, shifting demographic that we've talked about that's embracing new technologies, new service options, an entirely new relationship with end of life, that, in turn is linking to the economic realities that we touched on a little bit earlier. Driving, as those realities do, a need for efficiency to keep costs under control, to maintain margins in the face of consumers who are both more price sensitive, but also more able to price shop than any any time in history.

As well as that, there's a new generation, as we've talked about, of educated, price sensitive consumers who, even as we face that, we also face escalating compliance costs. You know, it's interesting to me that when we put that put that up, you know, compliance burden was, I think, second or third highest on the poll. This increased demands for record keeping, greater requirements around ground-to-memorial maintenance, many aspects of the operations of our customers, of your organizations.

The compliance burden is getting higher in the face of increasing price sensitivity, increasing willingness to shop around. So one way of responding to that is an increasing emphasis again on preneed sales. But that in turn brings additional management, additional compliance burdens, additional challenges there. And again, arguably further commoditization puts price pressure on the sector.

Into that mix, there are the fundamental technology shifts that we've touched on, the trend towards online engagement, towards first contact with a family being via your website. We saw some of those statistics before, towards a desire to make and to modify bookings and orders online, towards families embracing an almost DIY build your own end of life experience piece by piece and service by service. This trend, of course, is tied closely to the to the preneed trend as well as, we'll talk about it in a sec, the changing relationship with death as well all tying back to that same thing.

As if that's not enough within our sector, you know, we have. What about streaming? One short year ago, people traveled, for leisure, but certainly for for funerals. Now, you know, travel is, if not impossible, certainly restricted. Recall back to the start, you know, almost half of the people surveyed said that they thought that online, online attendance was at least close to like being there, that they provided a similar sense of community and engagement and support. Roughly that same proportion, which is not surprising, also said they no longer saw a need to travel to funerals when they can attend via a streaming service. And this is potentially a really significant short term change that may very well stick post-Covid. Throw in the growing adoption of online memorialization. And that's something that really keeps families and friends a digitally native way to share in the experience that particularly younger generations. And we can see that there is this incredible pressure on the deathcare sector to engage and embrace digitally.

And then last of all, as if that wasn't all enough, there's the change to just the way that we relate to death fundamentally. Death doulas, you know, what they mean to funeral directors, to celebrants and cemeteries. They're only starting to appear here in ANZ, at least in the anecdotal experience that I have. But some of my colleagues overseas are saying that as a really strong trend that is starting to occur.

Related again, hospice and living funerals that happen while a loved one is still alive. You know, how does that change the proposition that the current death care sector is presenting to the bereaved?

And then there's green burials, which we've spoken about here at OpusXenta and some of the events that I've hosted and what that means not just for cemeteries, but more broadly for the memorialization within cemeteries, for the spaces within cemeteries, for how cemeteries work and optimize and run themselves.

Welcome to the new normal, indeed, right?

So, again, what does it all mean? Fundamentally, it really does mean that we are facing a new normal in the very literal sense of that term, not the same normal, a different and new normal. What we did will not be what we do now and will not be what we do tomorrow. What worked may very well not work any longer. We've seen the change coming. We saw the comet in the sky.

It's now upon us. And we either embrace it and transform or we risk being the woolly mammoth that's trapped in the tar pit, trumpeting our defiance to the sky but still stuck and unable to free ourselves. As a sector, we need to accept that people have changed. We need to flex our offerings to match that. We need to deliver those offerings more efficiently, more flexibly, because if we do not, our competitors will do and they will steal our spotlight. They will leave us in the dark and our community will get increasingly agitated and look for alternatives because we are not addressing what they actually want.

So that got kind of bleak, but it's not all doom and gloom. Goodness knows we've all had more than enough doom and gloom. It doesn't actually need to be hard to make these changes that we've talked about.

So let's have a look at that. And how do you eat an elephant, anyone who's ever attended any of these webinars that I run heard me talk about technology or in fact any type of change you'll heard me offer at least this one piece of advice before, which is: just start. Start somewhere. You don't necessarily have to rip out the foundation of your business, bulldoze the structure and rebuild from scratch. In fact, you almost certainly shouldn't completely bulldoze and rebuild.

You can see on screen at the moment our very own seven step program to digital transformation. And one little tip that I'm going to add over the top of this, as you read down, it is just start and never stop. Keep picking the next target for digital change. Start big, start small. Start with whatever makes sense for you. But once you've started, don't stop. It's very tempting to take a step towards digital, big step, little step, whatever is appropriate. But to then pause for breath before you take the next step. "That was a big change. Let's just take a moment." That's fine. Take that pause, but don't turn the pause into a nap. Don't take too long because then you lose momentum, you lose the appetite, you lose your place in the crowd and you start to fall back again. And it's very difficult, very difficult. Once that change, momentum fades away to reinvigorate it. So just start, but also just don't stop. And it's actually easier than you think to do these things.

And as I say, just start right? Easy to say. Something specific, perhaps? Here's the next seven point list. Grab one from this list. Address it. And then we've just started. What do we do next? We just don't stop. Grab one, address it, grab the next. If your appetite, and let's be honest, the budget and the bandwidth of your people allow, grabb a couple at a time.

If you're a small volunteer led cemetery, I'm here to tell you, I can show you ways to knock at least three of the points on the screen at the moment off in at most a month or two with an investment that is manageable within those types of budgets. I know, I have these conversations every day. Hitting these bullet points doesn't have to be any bigger than it needs to be to match your organization. But pick'em, grab one, grab two. Grab as many as makes sense and start knocking them off.

And again, I'm conscious of the time, this is kind of a different way of looking at the same question, where do I start? In this case, we're spinning it to allow us to look at it from either a which tool? perspective, if that's the way you're approaching it, or from a key bono, who benefits? perspective. Or in fact, as particularly for larger organizations, the Who Benefits question is often better paraphrased as "who's yelling at me the loudest right now?"

But again, it's the same core discussion, just start. It genuinely doesn't matter whether you are the largest and most complex of organizations or just a handful of volunteers. There are ways to hit every single one of these bullet points within your budget and within the realistic bandwidth of your team's time.

For those of you who attended one of the webinars we did late last year, focusing particularly around marketing automation, we talked about tools within that that sit at every budget literally from free up to quite comprehensive. And it's the same thing all the way down these lists. There are places to start on any of these things.

So. We're now clearly coming up against time and coming towards the end of today's event. Before we get to the questions, and we have a few, but please throw in a few more. I'm going to make a couple of closing comments. And again, if you've attended any of these before, some of this will be a little bit familiar.

If you did find anything from today beneficial, head to our website, OpusXenta dot com. And in particular, there's a lot of content in the blog session, the blog section that relates to yesterday's topic. But many of the other things that we've touched on and many other more broad areas. You know, today we didn't speak about grounds and services, but there is a huge volume of content around that, all kinds of different things on there, as well as in the blogs area.

Take a look over our events. You can see another one that's coming up soon, to see what other sessions we have upcoming. And again, I mentioned it up front, but we will be distributing recordings of today's event over the coming days. So please feel free to send those links onto any of your colleagues. Similarly, if something that we said today piques your interest, the next slide, you'll find my personal contact details, but you can always reach out to our general contact details, find it on the website and contact us, or send us a message at marketing at OpusXenta dot com.

And we're also always looking for: what do you want to know about? What topics does the audience want to hear about? So, again, let us know what you'd like to learn about. For those of you who've attended any of our "In conversation with" sessions, that also includes people or things that you want to hear about that might not necessarily be directly within the sphere of OpusXenta. I, personally, I really enjoy those "In conversation with" events and bringing people from outside of our direct sphere into into the audience and letting you get some wisdom from them as well.

So reach out to us as well. Marketing at OpusXenta dot com, off the website, on my direct contact details that you can see on screen at the moment and let us know where else you would like us to take these discussions in these sessions.

So that is an end of the core content today. And I look at the clock and see that I've hit the half hour perfectly on the nail. Good for me. We've got a few questions, fire any more that you've got. But let me let me start having a look here.

OK, well, let's start with this one. As you know, I'm going to slightly paraphrase this here, but this there's a question here saying that some of these stats don't necessarily match the Australian experience or this person's particular experience. You know, I guess the implied question being: Are they valid and why do I need to make a change? And I guess I would say that, yes, the ANZ situation is very different to the UK and the US situation, but it doesn't change the fact of change, does it?

You know, we talked about, change was coming pre-covid, it still is coming. I don't think it's deniable that covid even in the slightly lighter touched covid. You know, it's still significant change within the ANZ region, has still massively accelerated change. So, yes, we have been somewhat fortunate here by comparison to other areas. But I don't think that whether you're quibbling over the finer points, I don't think you can quibble over the fact that change was coming, is coming, has come, and you do need to make these changes.

Um. Yes, one here around, you know, it does, I guess the question here, and I'm sort of paraphrasing, it's about Internet connection. I suppose there's a question here about does digital necessarily mean on the Internet? Yes and no. It certainly means connected in that sense, I think. But what I will sort of say to to address that is that. We don't have to be talking about, you know, big fiber optic speed Internet either.

You know, all of these types of digital changes that we're talking about, a lot of it is just about doable over dial up speeds. To be honest. Your Internet connection and bandwidth is not necessarily a relevant consideration if you're doing it, you know, in a sensible and right ways.

OK, here's one. A little bit related, I think, actually, to the first question about the specificity, specificity of the stats as they relate to Australia, asking about the statistics specifically in ANZ. So what I'll say about that is, first of all, yes, some of these stats were global, but some of them were local, but also, as I always encourage you, to reach out to the associations as well for their take and their statistics on what's happening in the local ANZ regions. You know, the associations frequently have the capacity to offer guidance and advice around these types of questions, around the statistics and what the trends that they're seeing in that type of stuff.

Also, not for nothing, we at OpusXenta, we've been running, we'll continue to run a series of surveys of the death care sector, and technology and the death care sector. Both, we've run these both in ANZ but also globally. Some of the findings of those I think are going to be coming out and shared quite soon. If you didn't see that, either reach out to your associations. I think we ran them in part with the associations as well, or reach out to me or to us marketing at OpusXenta, and we should be able to help with that as well. That is obviously going to be a really beneficial thing for us. But, you know, the idea is that we can feed that back into the community as well.

Um, what else have I got here? There's a again, I'm going to sort of slightly paraphrase, um, saying, you know, I'm not convinced that my audience is ready for the change. And in fact, um, some of them might might resist it, you know, might end up hurting us. I probably didn't speak to this is directly as maybe I should have.

A digital transformation, a digital change, a digital migration, whatever phrase you want to give to it, it doesn't necessarily mean completely breaking the old way either. It doesn't mean that you have to change your relationship with all of your existing contacts. It's more of a case of expanding onto it. And you can drop some of the old services off if you wish, but you can do that at your own speed. It's it's not about changing for change's sake. It's about expanding to meet a demand for change. And we've seen it. This demand does exist. And in fact, you may well be snubbing a demand that you're not even necessarily aware of and frustrating an audience that you're not even aware are looking for a different type of interaction with you.

But even then, digital doesn't have to mean that you throw out what's been traditional. You can run the two in parallel for as long as makes sense, quite seamlessly and actively as well.

Um, what have we got here? I spoke about this a little bit, there's a question here about sort of, again, paraphrasing, where to start? Does it have to be all or nothing? I touched on this a little bit. It's my favorite, my favorite saying. Right. Just start. You know, go back when we send the recording, go back to our two lists of seven, pick one or two things there that make sense to you. Go out and hit them.

Then, as I said, the other half of that: don't stop. Go out and pick the next one. The next one. The next one and keep iterating. So no, it doesn't have to be all or nothing. It doesn't have to be big bang. It can be just start and then just keep going.

Um. Uh. We've got some cynics in the audience today. I think there's a question here about losing, losing focus on on the market and being competitive in the market while I try and put in my digital transformation. That's a heavy paraphrase. I guess that's, that's you know, if I, if I sort of take, I think the intention here, there's always competing priorities, right? You're always need to be delivering a service out to your customer, to your audience, and you're always going to have other priorities.

But taking this digital transformation, moving towards digital, as we said, it's it's both a necessity, but it's also a way to address a wider audience, to increase engagement with that audience, ultimately, not to try and sound confrontational, but it was a slightly cynical question. So I'm going to sort of hit it head on, I guess. Embracing digital is actually embracing being competitive. It's embracing, giving your audience what they want. I guess, you know, to take it a step further, if you're not doing this, you're actually ignoring demand and sacrificing competitive advantage or arguably even sacrificing competitive parity because this stuff is happening out in the sector already. It is a fact. If you're not doing it, it's starting to get to a point where you're no longer a thought leader. You're actually in danger of becoming a laggard in some cases to use some of Gartner's terms.

Uh, how are we doing for time or maybe a little bit or. Uh. Sorry, scrolling down. I think probably, looking down these questions, there's a couple here that that speak to probably the same type of point that I think I've already spoken to.

So, yeah, I think I think we might bring it to a close here. Thank you, everybody, for attending. We will send out the recording soon. If you did get a question, I'm pretty sure I've addressed all of them that you didn't get answered. You can see my contact details on the screen or [email protected] Thank you very much for your time. And I look forward to seeing you at our next event.

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